“Navigating the Engineering Manager Odyssey”: Megha Krishnamurthy (Adobe), Namrata Ghadi (Workday), Nono Guimbi (Airbnb), Seetha Annamraju (Cash App), and Joya Joseph (Hinge Health) (Video + Transcript)

In this panel discussion, Joya Joseph, an engineering manager at Hinge Health, moderates a panel with Megha Krishnamurthy, a senior engineering manager at Adobe, Namrata Ghadi, an engineer and tech lead at Workday, Nono Guimbi, an engineering manager at Airbnb, and Seetha Annamraju, an engineering manager at Cash App. They discuss various topics related to being female managers in the tech industry, including transitioning into and out of management roles, maintaining career development for ICs, building team culture and trust, and building confidence in team members. They also provide advice on preparing for interviews in the current job market, emphasizing the importance of networking, research, preparation, and having a support group.

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Transcript:

Joya Joseph:

Hi. Welcome everybody. I am Joya Joseph, I am an engineering manager here at Hinge Health. And I am joined by some awesome people and some awesome women who are going to also introduce themselves. We’ll start with Megha.

Megha Krishnamurthy:

I’m Megha Krishnamurthy, I’m a senior engineering manager at Adobe. Until recently, I’m in the transition phase to move to my next role. Which, connect with me on LinkedIn and you’ll see more about it. I’m so excited to be part of this panel. And thank you Angie and Sukrutha for giving me this opportunity.

Joya Joseph:

Thank you. Namrata?

Namrata Ghadi:

Hi, I’m Namrata. I am an engineer and tech lead at Workday. Not too long ago I was also an engineering manager, but I transitioned back into an IC recently. And I hope to share some of my experience both as a manager as well as IC.

Joya Joseph:

Thank you. Nono, can you introduce yourself?

Nono Guimbi:

Yes. Hi everyone. Hello. My name is Nono, I’m an engineering manager at Airbnb, and I have been there for three years. And I have been an engineering manager for about seven years now, and I’m really super excited to be here with you.

Joya Joseph:

Great, thank you. And not least, Seetha. How are you?

Seetha Annamraju:

Hey everyone, my name is Seetha. I am an engineering manager at Cash App. I’ve been here for close to four years now. And before this I was mostly doing Android development. Really excited to be here.

Joya Joseph:

Now that introduced ourselves we will start talking about… As you can see, most of us, or all of us really, either been in management or have moved out of management and back into tech. But we’re going to talk about all the things that are important to us as managers, especially as female managers in the spaces, what we have gone through. Some things to help you understand what management looks like, and also, how to transition in and out of management.

To get us started, let’s talk about the transitions. All of us have either transitioned in or out. How did you transition into management or tech leadership? If anybody wants to take that?

Nono Guimbi:

I can start.

Megha Krishnamurthy:

Go ahead, Nono.

Nono Guimbi:

Okay, thank you, Megha. I actually wrote a post about it recently on my LinkedIn. So if you find me, you will really see the long version there. But I transitioned back in 2000, I think it’s ’17. Yes. And I joined this company called Pandora, they do music, and I was a senior software engineer. I joined around May. And in August I was an engineering manager. And if you had told me that it would happen this way, I would have never thought that this was possible. What were the steps there? When I joined Pandora, I joined as an engineer, software engineer, so my expectations were to do a software engineer role. And I joined just before the career conversation time. And I really loved the company, I really loved my manager.

And I think this was the first time for me I was witnessing a manager I could really relate to. And I was like, “Oh, I could do his job. I really like what he’s doing. It doesn’t seem really that scary.” And so during our conversation he told me, “Hey, Nono, what do you want to do later?” I’m like, “Oh, I think I want to be a manager.” And then I back, I’m like, “No, but not now, I know I just joined. So it’s not now, but maybe later, maybe in a year or so. Maybe later.” And then he said, “No. You know what? I can really see you as an engineering manager. You have all those skills, so you will do fine.” I was like, “Oh, you really think that?” I said yes. So that was the end. And times went by, and I think in June or July there was an opportunity in one of our sister team and he sent me a Slack message and say, “Hey, Nono, there is an opening right now for an engineering manager position. Do you want to take it? Do you want to try?”

Because I had to go through the interview process. I was so excited, so scared, but I said yes. And then I did all the prep work to understand, what is the interview process to become an engineering manager? What do I need to know? I know that there were a lot of questions where I wouldn’t be able to answer, but at least I tried to think about what would I do if I was put in the situation. And really, I know that many people tend to think that, yeah, it takes time, you need to demonstrate this or that. But there are always sometimes some opportunities. And I think that I was there at the right time. And what really played the role for me that I really shared what I wanted with my manager. I think the piece of advice here is really to share what you want, to talk about it. Because if you don’t talk about it, nobody is going to know. And if I have not done that, my manager would have never proposed me this opportunity. So I created my own chance when I did that.

Joya Joseph:

Thank you, Nono. It’s really important to know where you want to go. Let somebody know, and then they will advocate for you and help you get there. That’s basically the takeaway from that. And then that’s the IC to management pivot, now we’re going to look at the other way. Namrata, how and why did you transition out of management? We heard about Nono transitioning into management, but how did you do it? And what should a manager, going back into the IC role, understand about that move?

Namrata Ghadi:

Right. I’ll talk about me personally on why I made that decision to go back into the IC role. When I decided to become a manager, I was already part of a team. And I had good understanding of the product that we were building, and I felt confident that I can survive as a manager within that team. And then sometime back AI took over, and I quickly realized that because everything is becoming fast-paced, and we all have to upskill ourselves to the new technologies in the AI space, I personally feel very confident of leading a team when I have hands-on experience with it. I think that gives me a sense of confidence. And also, the role in my org, at my company, requires the engineering managers to also contribute towards code, to brainstorm with the senior lead engineers and tech leads to design the solution, and also show the direction or show the path forward for the teams and the feature. Considering all of these things and the fact that I wanted to get more experience in AI, I decided that I wanted to transition back into an IC role.

Joya Joseph:

And then, because you have sat between both, you’ve been managing, you’ve been IC, what are the things that you feel that managers often forget about being a tech lead or being an IC in a team?

Namrata Ghadi:

Yeah. When I was a manager, one of the things I always felt was that there is always this sword on your neck, or whatever they say. That there are timelines, there are customers that you have to satisfy, there are roadmaps that you have to align to, and deliverables. As a manager, I thought that it was sometimes difficult to convince the engineering teams to be on the same page with those timelines. And considering that now pretty much everybody has to adapt to the fast pace that our current industry is currently experiencing, sometimes that you will experience as a manager a pushback from your engineering team. And that’s when you have to be a little understanding towards where they come from, and also understanding of where the upper leadership is coming from, and try to establish that balance between the two. And I think that was one of the things that I personally felt was hard to work around and get the team onboard with those things.

Joya Joseph:

Awesome. It seems like the communication, it’s almost a different job. And then the communication though is the one thing that is constant between those two jobs. And so if you don’t have that communication, it all falls apart. And we’ve all worked on teams where it all falls apart.

Namrata Ghadi:

Yeah, definitely. Communication and transparency, being transparent both ways is really important.

Joya Joseph:

Very important. And then Megha, now you had raised your hand a little earlier for that question. How did you navigate the IC to manager transition? What was the epiphany that, “Megha needs to be a manager”?

Megha Krishnamurthy:

Sure, Joya. In my case it was a very intent-driven transition. One of the things we spoke, like Nono mentioned, is knowing what you want in your career. And I had that very clear in my mind that I want to move towards this role for multiple reasons. As an IC and a tech lead, I enjoyed mentoring other engineers. I enjoyed having broader conversations, learning about the business. And the collaboration aspect of it, bringing the team together, and all of these things. And I look at what my manager is doing for the team and I knew that’s the direction I want to go in. And I started taking baby steps towards it, finding opportunities, being willing to take up challenges outside of your comfort level. And communicating to the leadership and my management, this is the direction I want to go. So when there is an opportunity, they can provide that to you and consider you as one of the candidates.

And I also intently took some of the… Learning is a very important aspect. These two are very different roles. I invested time into taking some leadership courses at that time provided by eBay, and also tools like LinkedIn Learning, Coursera, and so on. And so in order for that to happen, that transition, there has to be two things. There has to be a readiness from your end, and there also needs to be a role available. There are two aspects that are required to make that happen. I was working towards that, and interestingly enough, I completed around five years at eBay and I was looking for a role within for the last one year there. And since I was not finding those opportunities within my org or in peer teams, like Nono had that opportunity, I ventured outside.

I looked at other companies and other roles, and definitely building strong relationships and partnerships across orgs in the company, and having the mentorship definitely helped there. Because applying to an engineering management role without having the experience, people usually don’t even look at your resume or consider it. But given that relationships that I had and when I applied to this role I was interviewed for, and I moved into that role. That was my journey into management, very intent-driven, and I took all the steps that I need to get myself ready for it.

Joya Joseph:

Right. If you want to move into it, basically I’m hearing is sometimes it’s not at your company. And sometimes, as they say, you hit the glass ceiling at that company, but there’s more movement that you can find outside your company. But setting yourself up to get into that role, putting yourself intently into that role sometimes is a path. I know some people unfortunately also get thrown into that role, but having that understanding of where you want to go. And keeping in with career development, now we’re managers. Now, other people’s careers are important for us to lead them forward. Seetha, coming to you, how do you maintain the career development of your ICs as a manager? How are you best making sure that they are able to achieve success in what they want to do in their professional endeavors, as a manager? What are some good best tips for that?

Seetha Annamraju:

Yeah. One of the things that I like to do… Background is that I didn’t have a lot of good managers. It felt like the most important thing for me should have been career development, and I wasn’t really getting that. So when I became an EM, I was like, I’m going to make sure that this is my top priority. One of the things that I do is I set up quarterly career check-ins, this is across all of my directs. There is always a recurring career check-in. And I do a red, yellow, green exercise with each of them against the career ladder that we have at our company. And this is what I would recommend to other EMs as well. There’s almost always some type of career ladder or promo-readiness evaluation that’s available. So doing a red, yellow, green with your directs and providing feedback during those check-ins, finding opportunities for where they can expand in those gaps are all good ways.

And then the other thing I would say to ICs is, understanding the career ladder at your own company, because almost every company will have some version of this. Taking the time to understand the process and then looking at past packets, if they’re available. All of these will be really beneficial for your own growth. One of the expectations for almost every engineering manager is to help directs improve in their careers. So you can request career check-ins with your lead. Set an expectation and hold them accountable, because this is one of the core responsibilities for your lead. And then request feedback at a recurring cadence as well. You can ask, “What gaps do you see for me at the next level?” And if they’re not able to answer, that’s probably a red flag, but at the same time you can go in and talk to your peers and try to figure out what those gaps are.

Then one of the other things I would say is, advice for ICs, sometimes I have ICs come to me and say their EMs haven’t been supportive of their career or their path to promo. Always ghostwrite your own packet. You don’t have to wait for your EM to write a packet for you, especially if you’re not feeling that support. Because if you ghostwrite your packet, you’ll understand where your gaps are. You can find a trusted group of people that you can get some review done with and get some feedback at least to begin with.

I think these are my tips, request career check-ins. One of the things I do is identify gaps for my team. I try to find opportunities not just within my team, but outside of the team. Because in order to fulfill a gap, an opportunity may not always exist on your team. But maintaining your peer relationships with other cross-functional leads or your peer EMs will help you find opportunities that your team can jump into to help in an advisory capacity, or one quarter a year or something like that. And then one last thing is I try to offer, take at least half a day every week. Or take Fridays, especially when we don’t have too many strict deadlines that are coming up. Take a day and focus on the things that you want to improve for the company. And so that helps people venture outside of the team as well.

Joya Joseph:

Great. Thank you, that’s some great advice. Sometimes you have to take initiative for your own. Especially, I think we all have had bad managers at some point in our journeys. And so, instead of waiting for that manager to do the things that you need for yourself. Because your professional development, it’s also in your hands as well. And as managers, we’re also being managed as well. Nono, do you have any additional insights on managing your performance and making sure that you are seen, heard, and all that stuff?

Nono Guimbi:

Yeah. Another point I would add is adding career conversation. And I don’t need to wait for my manager to set them. Every trimester we talk about, how am I doing? Where I need to improve. And yes, we use a career ladder as an example of the things that we want to demonstrate. One thing which is important is that not everyone want to move to the next level. Sometimes we want to stay in the level where we are, and we want to grow, we want to acquire more skill to solidify some skills. But being intentional and talking about that, asking for constant feedback for improvement, or to improve on the things that we are doing well, not just with the manager but actually also with the peers. And I think it also means, especially for the people who are trying to grow, understanding the process.

If, for example, you want to move to the next level, you need to understand, what is the process of this promotion? Who are the key actors? So you can maybe start developing some relationships. There is a lot of thing that is going in the relationships that you have with people, and you can’t go into this process not knowing what will happen. And of course, get feedback. Get constant feedback. I love the idea of writing your own package. And even if you are not ready for a promotion, asking feedback on that. A, if tomorrow I would go with this, what would it be? What would be the gaps? So being prepared. And it’s all in the intention that we set for what we do.

Joya Joseph:

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that wraps up performance, because I think it’s for everybody. It doesn’t matter if you’re IC, doesn’t matter if you’re a manager, we’re all held to a performance metric. And making sure that you’re aligning with what is expected of you and what you expect of yourself as well. You should be giving yourself performance management courses. Yeah, keep yourself true to yourself as well. You don’t want to get lost.

And that puts us into, we’re all women on this call, and we have been or currently in management. One of the things, how do you make sure that team building and hiring and team culture, and trust and all of that stuff doesn’t get regulated to us because we happen to be the women in the company and we’re good at that? How do you get that from you becoming the secretary of the management team essentially? How do you avoid that? Seetha, you want to take that one?

Seetha Annamraju:

Sure. I might have a slightly different framing for this question, but I don’t necessarily see this as a women-only problem. It is possible that women care about this historically, or tend to gravitate towards it. But to be clear, I think caring deeply about your team, team culture and building an organization where trust is high priority are all signs of an effective leader, or an effective team. And I think people underestimate the value of building a strong team culture and the trust within the team. But we also, at the same time, see that teams that have high trust and a strong team culture tend to be more resilient. They tend to be higher performing, they tend to create broader impact.

I think there’s two ways that we can probably ensure that women aren’t solely focused on team culture and trust. One of those is to hold leaders accountable. In opportunities that come up ask, how do we plan to address a lack of trust or strong team culture? As an engineering manager, you tend to have a little bit more leverage than an IC in talking to your skip lead, or bringing this up as a recurring conversation. And this is something that I do, which is not comfortable at all. But, “Hey, here’s a gap that I see on this particular team.” And then I see from that team, a woman I see has reached out to me and said this is a problem that they’re facing. So go outside of your comfort zone and mention it to… Luckily, we have a culture where I feel mostly safe to go to the head of mobile engineering and say, “Hey, this team doesn’t feel like it has the right combination of trust and safety to operate effectively. And I’m wondering if there are things that we can do here.”

So bring it up in a productive way that improves the organization. That can work sometimes, it depends on how well your leadership is aligned with this. But the other way is to just become that example. And I’m not saying it’s the easier way, but it is a very clear way. Because when you become an example and you showcase the impact of a high trust team or a strong team culture, you see higher performance, you see resilience and impact, and that does show up. And so if someone were to say, “Hey, Seetha’s team is shipping all this stuff, but nobody looks like they’re burned out, everybody looks happy and they’re a strong team,” that shows up. And why that happened, you can trace back. And when people ask, I can talk about all these. I found that tends to be a little bit more of a motivation, the impact of having these, than the work to create that trust. Yeah.

Joya Joseph:

Do any of our other panelists have anything to add to some of that good insight there from Seetha? Since we all are women in these spaces, any examples of how you’ve become not the queen of morale, basically, at your companies? And how to spread that culture, that team culture, so the other engineering managers that are not women can also adapt to that. Do you have any examples?

Megha Krishnamurthy:

I do. Interesting enough, I became the morale queen back at org, Adobe. And it started out as, “Hey, we need to bring the team together.” Especially, I started working there in the beginning of the pandemic, and everything was virtual. New hires are not able to connect with the team, they’re all in our homes. And building that strong relationships takes a lot of effort to gather the team together. We are not meeting people in person. I suggested a few things we can do as an org. For instance, as simple as celebrating people’s birthdays, and in a virtual setting. And not necessarily on the day but a monthly one, because we can’t just have too many meetings all the time too. So a monthly birthday celebration. I did start off.

And after a few months I felt like this shouldn’t just be my onus to do this, we could share that burden and across different leaders in the org, like ICs, whoever, and share that. I’m not the one responsible for always setting these up, getting people in, sending those invites, whatnot. And then I brought it up in my staff meeting with my leadership saying, “Hey, I started this. I did this for a while. Now I need someone else to take this up. Another volunteer, could be one of you or one of someone from your teams to continue this.” And we started sharing that responsibility. Because it’s not just my responsibility, it has to be a culture across the org and teams.

Joya Joseph:

And then, just to follow up on that, how do you improve trust? You need your team to trust you. You need the team to trust the company. You need the team to trust each other. How do you, as a manager or a tech lead, improve on the team culture and the trust in the team? Because I think trust is very, very important both ways. How can the team trust you? Anybody feel like they want to feel that one? Nono?

Nono Guimbi:

Yeah, I think that trust needs to be heard. We have to earn the trust. And my way to build the trust with the people around me is to show a real interest for who they are. Not just as IC engineers, but even outside of work, because those people have a life. And to really care about showing interest about what they want. To me, they’re where they are exactly. Whatever, what they are doing, whatever their last performance is, understanding exactly where they are with the company right now and building this trust and showing them that their success is actually my success. I want them to really be successful. Because what people don’t often realize is that when we are able to promote engineers, or when people are doing well, it does reflect on us. So their success is completely directly tied to my success.

And then from there, it’s really building a relationship where I first can be vulnerable. I’m not afraid to share, not my doubt, but the things where I’m unsure. Being able to say, “You know what, I don’t know, but I’m going to figure this out. You know what, this also impress me, but we are going to find a way.” Being vulnerable and sharing about our weaknesses so they can feel that, okay, this person is not here just to be the one who has all the answer, but is also human being going through stuff. And it allows them also to be vulnerable when they are going through certain things. I think that the vulnerability, it’s tricky because you want the trust to be vulnerable, but you’re also being vulnerable builds the trust. So it can be difficult to know where to start. But use your intuition when you meet people, given what’s going…read the room. Read people, their face, what they are showing, how they are expressing themselves.

And at the end it can only reflect on your relationship with those people, but also with the team. In team meetings, when you are showing up, really be true. It doesn’t mean that you need to be the one with making jokes and everything, but really care. If you see something, say something. If there’s an elephant in the room, talk about it and say, “Hey, I’m noticing this. Let’s talk about that.” And always share what’s your intention behind. People will really thank you and really get to know you, and get to understand your style and know that, okay, this person really care.

Joya Joseph:

Yeah. One of the things that I wanted to pull out as a small thread, is as leaders and as managers on teams, how do you help your ICs or other managers – because I will say other managers as well – build that confidence? Because one of the things that I have noticed in my time is that many times the women engineers don’t have the confidence. It’s that, I am not supposed to be here feeling that we all get, or I’m not good enough feeling. As managers and as leaders, how do we build that? Because that’s part of that trust as well. And part of that development is, how do we build the confidence of our ICs and our fellow peer managers and leaders? Anybody can take that.

[crosstalk] That’s a big question.

Seetha Annamraju:

I have a thought on this. I think the question is around, how do we build confidence for peer EMs and also for senior ICs? One of the ways that I do this is I look at the way that I’m roadmapping or planning projects, and I always make sure that any women on the team, or basically ensuring that everyone has equal opportunity. And that almost always impacts in a positive way for the women, because they may not have gotten the same opportunity prior. The career development check-ins really help with this because I’m honing in on the gaps that I’m seeing. And I always say, “Here are your strengths, and this is where you can stretch in these strengths. For example, you write really great documents. I would love for you to speak up more in meetings when you feel comfortable. How can we create an opportunity to do so?” And try to create that opportunity.

But also, just giving a really easy way to provide confidence for ICs or peer EMs is to give them opportunities and say you trust them to run with it. And have their back even if something doesn’t go as well. There are sometimes situations where you may have someone own a project, and it’s not going exactly as it could. So you use that opportunity to provide feedback, but always create the background necessary so that they can succeed. One thing is you might say, “Hey, go talk to the senior leader to figure out how to do this piece of the project.” But before they do that, you reach out to that senior leader and say, “Hey, just a heads-up, this person is going to come to you for feedback. I would love for you to cooperate and help them. This is an area that they are going to do really well in if given the opportunity.”

So prefacing and setting that structure up for them to succeed. And then pointing back in these career check-ins or feedback, recognizing areas that they’re doing really well, finding peer feedback to support that. I find that things like imposter syndrome or improving confidence, it’s usually just a data thing. The more that you just say, “Hey, you’re really good at this. Did you notice you’re really good at this? Oh, did you hear this person say you’re really good at this?” And then requesting peer feedback. We use something called Lattice, but there’s other ways that you can do this. Just electronically requesting feedback that you can document in some way, whether it’s public or private. And then showcasing that, allowing kudos, doing recognition and channels.

Those all I have found to help build confidence. But more than anything, trust comes with trusting them with a project. That’s really what ICs and peer EMs want. For peer EMs, I’ve noticed giving them opportunities to speak has really helped. I’ve gone out of my way to ask a peer EM that’s a woman to just say, “Hey, I think this is a strength of yours. I think you should share it with the org. I’m going to set up a really informal discussion, would you mind leading this?” And then gathering the people necessary, the audience for it. And then panels like this and things like that, those are ways that you create confidence as well.

Namrata Ghadi:

And I would also like to add to that. It is also, I’ve seen what works is if you call out the work that they have done, the contributions they have made, that also helps in elevating their confidence levels. I would do that in my team time and again, especially for the engineers, be it women or not, who I would think were lacking in their confidence. If they have made some contributions that are worth calling out, then I would definitely make sure I do that.

Joya Joseph:

Yeah. What I’m hearing is mentorship through feedback, very important. And then visibility and call-outs, because you need them to see themselves as the great engineers that you can see. And getting to understand that, yeah, you’re great. Let everybody else see that they’re great. And also let them know that they’re great and where they can improve and expand.

I’m going to move us a little bit more into something that’s very more recent. We’ve all heard of the layoffs, there’s a lot of interviews and everything. As managers, because we are always on the other side of the table, we’re the ones that are interviewing people. And I know there are many people in our chat that probably are at that phase of their time. Speaking of hard and strategic things, how do you prepare for such interviews? What advice do you want to give to mid to senior-level women in tech about preparing for these interviews? We all know the interview space has changed a lot recently. I know that, recently just got out of it. Any advice from the panel about interviewing right now and how to prepare, how to get into those interviews and get that job? Yes.

Megha Krishnamurthy:

I can go. I just switched jobs in this economic conditions. One of the few things that really helped me is getting… The first step of the challenge that I saw in this time is getting your profile noticed. The few ways I went about to make sure that at least happened, that at least they consider your resume for that role, is research the company. Review the job description well to understand what is it exactly they’re looking for. Have your resume ready to showcase the contributions you have made and your experience relevant to that role and company. And connections, networking, reaching out to connections. Referrals really go a long way, because companies are getting hundreds and thousands of applications for those roles now. So getting all these in place so your profile stands out.

And of course, being very persistent and resilient. And taking the whole process of interviewing and taking it more as a learning experience and feeling empowered. That’s the step one, getting that first interview call or the recruiter call. And then on it, really prepare, sparsing up the technical skills. Especially for managers, having all the situational examples, behavioral questions, examples for them handy. Really understanding what aspects of that role can you fill in, and how can you bring your experience and strengths to the table. And preparing questions for the interviewers ahead of time. Really meaningful, thoughtful, insightful questions. I’m showcasing that interest, showcasing why you are passionate about that role.

Especially the moment you get a call with the recruiter, bringing in all those things to the table so you can actually move forward to the interviews. Because that I think is the bigger challenge right now, just getting that first call. Those are some of the things that really help. And definitely the network, LinkedIn network was very powerful.

Joya Joseph:

Yeah, lots about networking. Oh, go ahead, Namrata. Go ahead.

Namrata Ghadi:

And along with that I also feel, given the current times, it is also important to have your support group by your side when you’re interviewing, because it’s not going to always be a positive outcome. What you want to look at such outcomes is go through those interviews in your mind and think about where you could have done differently, and take those learnings with you into your next interview. But having that support group is also extremely crucial in these times.

Joya Joseph:

Yeah, most definitely. Having your…squad, I think I heard at one of our last ones, is having your squad with you along the way. I see Angie’s here.

Angie Chang:

Thank you so much for being part of our squad. I’m sure everyone here got some micro mentorship out of this panel, so thank you for sharing so much wisdom and insight from your career, the tactical management things to finding a job. Which, if you’re not doing it yourself, you definitely know someone who is, so feel free to pass on all the advice. And the fact that we’re doing this tomorrow as well, so stay tuned for more. Thank you so much, ladies, for joining us for Elevate. And see you at the next session.

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