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Episode 19: Switching Job Functions

Angie Chang: Welcome to the Girl Geek X podcast, connecting you with insights from women in tech. This is Angie, founder of Girl Geek X and Women 2.0.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Hi. This is Sukrutha. I’m, by day, an engineering manager.

Gretchen DeKnikker: This is Gretchen, and I’ve been working in tech for over 20 years.

Rachel Jones: This is Rachel, the producer of this podcast. And we’re the team behind Girl Geek X. This podcast brings you the best of Girl Geek X events, dinners, and conferences, where we’ve been elevating women in tech for over 10 years.

Angie Chang: And today we’ll be discussing switching job functions.

Rachel Jones: We’ve covered career transitions before. So how might this topic be a little different?

Gretchen DeKnikker: Well, career transitions tend to be any… I guess it would be a subset, right? So, career transitions are you’re switching companies, you’re getting a promotion, you’re… whatever. And the job function is, I was doing X, and I’m now going to do Y. Whether or not that’s with the same company or a new company, you’re moving really far out of your comfort zone, and you’re about to try something really new.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Yeah, you could be working in the exact same area, but your role could be totally different too.

Rachel Jones: Have any of you, during your career, switched job functions?

Sukrutha Bhadouria: The only job function that I ended up switching that was really noticeable was from being an engineer to a manager. But, while I was an engineer, too, I changed job functions a few times. I was primarily a backend engineer, and then I switched to being a frontend engineer, and then full stack. I feel like, after you work in a particular job function for some time, you’re working… playing to your strengths, so you start to lose the distinction between doing, really, more of what you’re good at, versus being comfortable and then complacent. So, just the fear of not constantly wanting to be too comfortable is what forced me to look around and switch around.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I think there’s only one time that I went from one company to the next where I didn’t switch job functions. I had more of an operational role, and then I went back to business school. And I thought I was wanting to go into marketing, but I realized as I was doing a marketing internship, that business development was a lot more interesting. And business development has a lot of operational functions, right? You’re dealing with accounting, and sales, and product, and engineering, and you’re kind of working all of those things together. So, if you look at my resume, it makes no sense. But the core functions and sort of making the pieces work together is what I do. And that always comes with a different title or a different scope of what’s most important, but I end up working with all of the pieces in different ways.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Angie, you changed job functions quite a bit too. You were a web designer, and then you also did product management. You were doing so many various roles in the education startup you were in, as well.

Angie Chang: Yeah, I think there were… I was pausing on this, because I feel like I change careers a lot, and so it didn’t fall in this category of job functions. And I’ve been at, like Gretchen, tiny startup companies with less than 50 people. And I’ve been there for only a few years. So I don’t feel like I’ve… in the situation where people at the biggest companies worked there for decades, and then they’re switching their job functions or after years of doing a job. So, for me, I didn’t really identify with this switching job functions. But we’re right. Because, we were trying to differentiate between career transitions and job functions. Yes, I’ve definitely, happily, jumped and tried new things. I went from product management, to marketing, to editor in chief, to… I think that, like Gretchen said, at startups, you give yourself names, and they’re not totally serious sometimes. Or sometimes they are. And you wind up doing so many things.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: What about you, Rachel? Tell me what changes you’ve experienced in your career.

Rachel Jones: I think one transition that I made early in my career that was kind of subtle is when I was still working with students in youth media. And when I first started, my role was really focused on the tech side of production with them, just showing them how to use the cameras and how to edit. And I switched to being more on the storytelling side. And even thinking about approaching media from that different perspective and how you teach technical things versus how you teach a kind of softer skill, I really had to think about the work that I was doing in a completely different way, even though I was working in the same space with the exact same students and creating the same kind of content. Yeah, my whole approach had to change completely.

Angie Chang: Lerk-Ling Chang is Vice President of Strategic Ventures at Guidewire. She leads Guidewire’s venture investing efforts and drives acquisitions and strategic partnerships. We heard about her transition from product to corporate strategy at the Guidewire event.

Lerk-Ling Chang: I did product management at Guidewire for… I guess it was probably about 12 years… and then decided to switch out of that role into something completely different, focusing on corporate strategy. What that means, initially, was two things. Strategic partnerships. And then second is acquisitions. It’s been kind of fun doing that, because I worked on acquisitions and as an investment banker before. But at that time, you kind of run numbers. You kind of say, “Hey, you can cut costs here, and you can add here, or you can increase revenues by 10%, 20%,” but you don’t really know what it looks like.

Lerk-Ling Chang: Now, I’m on the other side of the table, where we have to go through systematically to understand… Hey, can we really grow revenues, work with all the different teams around the company to understand how to plan an integration, and make sure the acquisition actually comes to fruition. So, I’ve been involved in all the five acquisitions that we’ve done, and it’s been a really interesting experience seeing that. And now I’ve had the opportunity, as part of this, to now lead up our venture investments, which are going to be starting up and doing a lot more of. So, taking the initiative when you see something that’s a problem that you think you can help fix, taking the initiative to suggest solutions, and then working with people to see if that can actually come to fruition…. That has helped quite a bit.

Angie Chang: Wow. 12 years. That’s really impressive. When we were at Guidewire… listening to the women at Guidewire talk about how long they’ve been working there, I think we were all just amazed and had a lot of respect for people that can spend a decade or more at a company and continue to grow.

Gretchen DeKnikker: And respect for the company that could retain that many amazing… because that panel at that event was amazing. You guys should check out the Guidewire YouTube.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Yeah. I remember it wasn’t uncommon, at least 10 years ago, to stay at your company for that long. But, now it’s becoming less and less common. When companies are able to retain their employees for that long, it’s obviously because they have a program or they have the environment where people can switch around job functions, which is what keeps the profession exciting. It’s interesting, the way Lerk-Ling was moving around in job functions the way she did.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I mean, I think it makes total sense, right? She had the investment banking background, but then she did product. And now she’s doing corporate strategy. And corporate strategy is all about product. Right? And understanding… Is this going to be additive, and understanding how the potential acquisition is going to incorporate into an existing product. So, the transition makes perfect sense, and it’s so cool that she was able to make that. And I think it takes a certain amount of bravery. Especially when you’re 12 years into something. You’re very comfortable. You’re a total expert at it to be, “Okay, I’m going to go do this other thing. And I’m going to have to have a beginner’s mindset, and I’m going to have to make mistakes. And have to probably make mistakes that other people are going to see, but I’m going to stick with it”

Sukrutha Bhadouria: What I find really interesting is her seizing this opportunity to see what are the areas she can make changes in. Often times, we don’t really look for areas that we can make changes in, make a difference in, because we’ve been in a particular role or a job function for a while. You stop looking outside of your area. That really fascinated me, and I know it’s going to push me to continue to do that. Because I’ve done some of it, but not at the degree that I would like to. What did you think, Angie?

Angie Chang: Yeah, I liked how she is very assertive and ambitious, and trying to look around corners, and seeing how she can lend her expertise and grow her domain of expertise. And, hopefully, it’s not so scary. I remember… At an Elevate conference, when Shawna Wolverton, the SVP of Product at Zendesk, was talking about all the jobs that she’s had. And how, taking them, you wouldn’t think that being a handbag designer would actually benefit your career, but it actually gave her a lot of really important insights that helped her in her career later on. And I think, similarly, a lot of people talk about the time they spent as a bank teller, or as a waitress, or as a barista, and how that experience has really helped them later in their careers. So, yeah, always having those different job functions can be very beneficial for your overall journey in life.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Yeah. It’s always when you look back, you see the pieces of the puzzle that fit, that at the time you didn’t think they would fit. So, having different experiences definitely makes you better at whatever next role you take. Because, you have a closer chance to a full picture.

Rachel Jones: I think one thing that I took away from Lerk-Ling’s quote is just how when you’re switching job functions, it doesn’t even have to be something that’s completely unfamiliar and brand new. A lot of times, you’re using the same skill set that you’ve always had. You’re just applying it in a different way to have a different kind of impact. [inaudible 00:10:49] That was interesting to me.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Full stack software engineer, Samantha Puth, shared her experience with her colleague, Cathy, as they moved between job functions, during our recent dinner with Amplitude.

Samantha Puth: Initially, we had created this really safe space to learn and be challenged. But over time, we realized that we became too comfortable and too complacent, and that in itself was the scariest thing. Being comfortable is not necessarily a bad thing, but being complacent means you’re stagnating your career. And we really try to prevent that.

Samantha Puth: So, that’s how we started getting to know each other, and we tried to discuss, “How can we keep improving our career? How do we keep growing together?” It’s hard to find advocates that are going to push you to do more. And as my manager was trying to do it, I still felt like I needed more. So, from there, I personally tried a few different things. Cathy tried similar things, where we moved to different parts of the product, different parts of the tech stack. And I, myself, as a traditionally more frontend engineer, did a rotation in DevOps for a quarter. And while I learned a lot, I just didn’t feel like it was super sustainable.

Samantha Puth: So, we knew the inevitable was coming. But that didn’t make it any easier. And as scary as it was, we were more fearful for the fact that our careers may be stagnating and we were missing out on valuable opportunities. So, with that fear in mind, that job is to really dive down deep and figure out what it is that we want. What is it that keeps us happy? What sustains this fulfillment as a developer? So, over lots of deliberation, on cocktail hours, happy hours, and wine, we came up with this. This was our need. We needed to find an ability or an opportunity to continually learn while providing a lot of impact. We knew we were the kind of people who would get bored if we weren’t being challenged. Yet, we were the kind of people who didn’t feel valued or fulfilled, if we weren’t proving to ourselves that we had an impact for those around us, as well as our customers.

Samantha Puth: So, that led us to Amplitude, where we’ve been actively trying to measure whether or not we’re actually doing this. This goal is something that we’re trying to keep each other accountable for. Or as I like to say it, accountabilibuddies who like to drink wine.

Gretchen DeKnikker: Hers really resonated with me, because I do get bored pretty quickly. I like to build things. I like to create something from nothing. I make this dumb analogy that if you put me in it a junk yard and said, “Take all these weird parts and make an engine,” eventually I would make an engine. And then once it ran fairly consistently, I would be bored. And I’d be, “Okay, so somebody else needs to come in and soup it up, and make it go fast and make it whatever.” But I get bored. And so, I think that’s probably the reason why I’ve always kind of switched functions to keep it interesting and to keep myself challenged. Because I’m one of those people who gets kind of self-destructive, if I’m not being challenged. I was the kid who was always in trouble, because I’d be talking or whatever else, because I was bored in class.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: That was me too. But I found that there were moments that I was letting myself be complacent before I got bored. So, you can be enjoying what you’re doing, but you’re just not getting any better… playing to your strengths.

Gretchen DeKnikker: And there’s nothing wrong with being complacent, if you are drawing what you need from some other part of your life, right? My life has always sort of centered around my job. But if you’ve got a hobby, or a volunteer thing, or your family, or whatever it is that you focus your time on… Right? Then, have a job where you can be a bit complacent, right? Because you’re growing in other areas of your life, and you need one part to be simple on some level.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: My thought is that I don’t want to let it reach that point where I’m like, “Oh my gosh. I’ve been bored for a whole year.” You know what I mean? I don’t want it to reach that stage that I’m reacting so late. Yeah, I think I’ve gotten better at looking for signs when I’m starting to go into that complacent stage. Because usually, for me, what it turns into is me feeling like I’m not getting appreciated at work, or I’m not getting my due. And it coincides with me starting to feel like I haven’t been challenging myself enough. Because it takes time to even make a move in your job functions, you want to get ahead of that, is what I feel.

Angie Chang: I was thinking of what Gretchen said about it being okay to be complacent. So, I’ve had… two times I was a product manager, and I know that in the Silicon Valley everybody was like, “You should be product manager. It’s very respectful, [inaudible 00:15:57].” So, I did it for two different jobs, and I knew it was kind of… I’m not saying complacent. But I feel like, maybe, that was not the ideal fit for me. It was weird because, I was like, “I’ve been very entrepreneurial. I shouldn’t do this, being CEO.” But, as Gretchen was saying, if there’s other things in your life that you are doing that light your fire and that you’re interested in… I was doing Women 2.0 on the side and Girl Geek dinners. So to me, I think, that was my saving grace through working at a job in tech… is that Women in Tech aspect on the side.

Rachel Jones: I was kind of thinking the same thing when Gretchen made that comment. For me, a lot of times when I do feel complacent at work, my response isn’t to go in that same job and think of a new function, but to find something outside of work to give me that fulfillment. That’s why I do podcasting outside of work… feeling like, yeah, I can still use a part of my skill set that’s exciting that I don’t get to use in my job. So that’s interesting to explore… not just within your strict career, but what things you can add to it on the outside to fulfill that need to challenge yourself. So, when you decide that it’s time to make a change, how can you go about doing that?

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Yeah. So, in terms of advice, I like Samantha’s approach where she and her friend Cathy… They were really deliberate about making sure that they talked through all the ideas of what they should do next and finally came up with what it is that they wanted to switch over to. I mean… Having someone you’re doing it with makes it a lot easier. Especially because they were looking specifically for opportunities where they were able to provide impact, while also learning and challenging themselves. And I think that sounds like a really good way to do it. I’m sure there are various ways. [Inaudible 00:17:56]

Angie Chang: I think from some of the ways that I’ve seen… For example, women in Product really succeed is when they work in Product, they create these Facebook groups or communities, these women in product meetups. They become little organizers of these different cities all around… I think, the Bay area and beyond. And it gives them a leadership opportunity, and also the chance to talk to other women in Product, and kind of share their experiences, figure out how to navigate the interview process, the different hurdles and challenges. They’re getting together. And that’s been really helpful for people’s careers.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: And this stage is when you want to have a network, or mentors. They don’t have to be someone who is far ahead of you in your career, but it could be someone who’s just had those experiences before you have, where you can bounce ideas off of them. So, that’s why we, at every Girl Geek Dinner, we’re recommending to everyone to make their network before they actually need it.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I think the first thing you need to do is figure out what you like and what you don’t like about your current job. And then kind of doing what Sukrutha was suggesting of talking to friends. Definitely talking to former bosses who sort of understand your strengths and weaknesses and understand you as a whole person, in a way that your colleagues or your friends don’t necessarily understand. And just sort of talking through, “I don’t really like doing this. I’d rather not do it anymore. I do like doing these two things,” and talking to as many people as you can who can give you ideas of, “Well, that same skill set would actually apply to this,” or “Have you considered moving into a role like this one?” And that’s where the best advice for me has come from… is particularly from former bosses who probably know, probably better than you do, what you’re really good at.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: I think that’s a great tip. I wouldn’t have thought of asking a former boss, but that’s… That’s really cool. I know I’ve asked a product manager I’ve worked with, because she was sort of working the [inaudible 00:20:08] role as me where she would be able to see what I was good at and what I wasn’t shining at and be able to give me similar advice. That’s really cool. I would think about that.

Gretchen DeKnikker: Yeah, that’s usually my starting point. When I’m frustrated, or bored, or just thinking, “What’s next?” And, of course, if you have an Angie… An Angie’s always very helpful with this. [crosstalk 00:20:33].

Angie Chang: You mean somebody who tells you all the things you could be that are two levels or one level above you? Whenever I hear women talk about, “Oh, I gave someone advice, free advice, I might be like, “You should charge for that,” or, “You should be an angel investor, or a partner, get tax credit.” [crosstalk 00:20:53]

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Why not?

Angie Chang: People are like, “No, I have to take a class. I have to just be [inaudible 00:21:00]

Gretchen DeKnikker: Angie’s next career transition is going to be into Life Coach, though.

Angie Chang: I mean… I guess that’s one way to categorize it. But I feel like… I don’t know. I think that’s the way we should be, just helping each other out. At these accountabilabuddy wine sessions, just help each other, elevate each other. So, for example, when I was looking for roles, I would always look for something very tactical and creative, and people would be like, “You totally deserve to be a director somewhere.” I’m like, “What? No.” And like, “I can see it.” And like, “No.” And so, you know, it’s daring to think that they’d… You always need that person, at least one, in your corner telling you that, you know, [crosstalk 00:21:43].

Gretchen DeKnikker: You need lots of them. Because, you’re not going to, generally, do it on your own. You’re not going to be like, “I’m so ready for that,” and be surrounded by people who don’t think you are. It’s normally your network pulling you, and being like, “Oh, come on, girl.”

Sukrutha Bhadouria: We’ll give you that push you need.

Angie Chang: We are like the best wing women, I think… for each other.

Gretchen DeKnikker: We are actually. Yeah. [inaudible 00:22:07]

Rachel Jones: [inaudible]

Gretchen DeKnikker: I don’t think any men- [crosstalk 00:22:13] Yeah. Even if we do, it totally bears repeating. It’s awesome.

Angie Chang: I think that a common trait of women is we can help each other out, almost more than we can help ourselves. But in that practice of helping out another woman, you’re like, “Well, I just gave Catherine that advice. I need to give myself that same kind of advice.” [crosstalk 00:22:39].

Sukrutha Bhadouria: When you’re mentoring someone else, you’re assisting someone else, and helping yourself as well.

Rachel Jones: So, one piece of advice that I have… But I think, yes, for myself, as much as other people… is to just try it. Because, I think I hold myself back a lot of times when there’s something new that I want to do. Just like, “I didn’t go to school for this. So, I didn’t have this many years of experience like the other people doing it.” And yeah, I just won’t even try because of that. But that doesn’t make sense. Just taking that first step of trying it, instead of holding yourself back based on the experience you don’t have.

Gretchen DeKnikker: Angela Buckmaster shared her own insights in navigating job function changes during our dinner with Poshmark, where she’s the Director of Community Operations.

Angela Buckmaster: I actually have been at Poshmark for a little over six years now. And so, I found Poshmark through a friend who still works here. We were friends through middle school and high school. And she heard that I had graduated college and was looking for my first big girl job. And she was on the community team here and said, “Hey, you should come interview.” So I did. And at the time, we had basically one role, which was Community Associate. And through that we wore a lot of different hats, as is typical at a startup. And from there, we kind of started to build into different teams. And so, from there I moved into the support team, still under the community umbrella. And I did some management for a couple of years. And through that, I noticed that I started having more and more of an interest in our KPIs and our SLAs. And I wanted to know why are they the way they are, how can we make them better, and to really understand them on a deeper level.

Angela Buckmaster: And so, I started speaking to my manager, and LyAnn, our SVP, and just letting them know, “I’m really interested in this. I would love to move into more of a data driven role.” The time wasn’t right… right at that moment. But I kept telling them, and I kept trying to get into projects that I could kind of dip my toes into the analytics area. Until the day came when LyAnn approached me, and she said, “Okay, the role is here. Let’s do it.” So, I happily went into that… more of an analytics role on the community team, which was awesome. I got to stay with my community family and did that for about a year. And then LyAnn approached me with another opportunity and said, “Hey, let’s build out this team.” So now I have the three areas. I have a data analytics team, a product knowledge team, and a training team.

Angela Buckmaster: And so, I’ve learned a lot over six years, right? I’ve learned that you can’t just keep your dreams to yourself. I think something I really believe is… Whatever you think about and you talk about all the time, is what you are or what you will become. And so I was very open, and I kept telling people about my dream. And I truly believe that that’s why it happened, because if you don’t speak up, no one knows. Right? So, that’s my little tip. I would encourage you all to just be very open about your passions and your dreams.

Gretchen DeKnikker: The thing that Angela points out is that she expressed her interest long before it was available. And I think sometimes it’s hard to know… To be like her, you have to know what your dream is. But, I think having a really strong relationship with your boss and saying, “Oh, that’s really… I really liked working on that thing.” And letting them know your interests and your preferences helps them, especially at a fast growing company like Poshmark, really build out those goals.

Gretchen DeKnikker: As a manager, you’re always in your head, especially in a really fast moving organization. You’re always thinking about what your next hire is going to be, and how that’s going to change the team, and what the skill set is going to be. And you’re just moving these players around on a board constantly. And having that bit of information, as a manager, is hugely important. So, even if it feels weird for you to express that, or they’ll think you don’t like your current job… It’s really a gift to your manager to tell them the things that you like.

Angie Chang: I think that’s a really good reminder for managers, also… to know where their reports want to be in a few years. So they can keep that in mind, as roles open up.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: It’s really hard though. Because, sometimes the manager is more wanting to keep the person who was great for that team or with that for that project, when that project may not be good for their growth anymore. So–

Gretchen DeKnikker: Yeah, but that’s not a good manager. Right?

Sukrutha Bhadouria: No, it’s not.

Gretchen DeKnikker: You definitely want one that–

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Not everybody has… realizes that they don’t have a good manager, until it’s too late.

Angie Chang: Right. And a lot of managers… not to knock the manager… learn that… learning curve of the first few years of their career. So, there’s always that chance that you don’t have a manager to help guide you, and you have to be outspoken like Angela.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: I’ve seen managers who have been managers [inaudible 00:27:53], and not provide that insight to the person who’s reporting to them. So, as that person is looking for changes, you need to manage up really well. You want to look up to your manager. If they’re not supporting you or not helping you, you need to realize that early.

Gretchen DeKnikker: And, I don’t think that her story is that much of an uncommon one, as far as joining a very fast growing company early. But, what she really had going for her, beyond just being able to speak up and say, “These are the things that I enjoy doing,” or “These are things I’d like to try,” is having someone who was in her corner that was championing her the entire time. Right? Like her… the person who keeps coming to her with these opportunities… You don’t leave a manager like that, right? If they’re going to keep growing you within a company… You don’t hear of people, especially in a company that stage where Poshmark is, of someone being there for six years. But why would she leave? She’s got the wind at her back and all the support that… at least from this little bit that we know, that she needs. And she’s growing. So, if you wonder why people only stay for 2 point whatever years in Silicon Valley, it’s because they don’t get that.

Rachel Jones: What stuck out to me was Angela’s process as she was waiting for something to become available. She didn’t just announce her intentions and sit back. But she mentions kind of dipping her toes into projects that let her get close to what she was trying to do. So, really just taking any opportunity to really demonstrate to people around her what she was interested in. And give her the kind of experience, so that when something did open up, she was really poised to take it. I think that level of initiative and intention is definitely something to strive for.

Rachel Jones: Do we have any final thoughts on switching job functions?

Sukrutha Bhadouria: I liked the suggestion, Gretchen, that you had where you said, “You should talk to a former boss who knows your strengths and anyone who knows your strengths,” to discuss what your next opportunity should be. I also like the idea of constantly looking out for opportunities where you can learn and make a dent. So, I feel like I should constantly be doing that. So, you don’t want to only be learning, but not have an impact. Because then, unfortunately, you’re not moving the needle, and that that energy is probably better spent where you can always make a change.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I think you just have to be willing to be courageous and understand that it would be hard to make a transition. And you’ll be out of your depth, but that ultimately you’ll be so proud of yourself, one… once you’ve like gone through it all. But also that you’re learning and you’re growing, and not just sort of sitting comfortably out of fear.

Angie Chang: But, I think also just this idea… People always say, the FOMO feeling of you’re missing out and things. Trying new things, though, is good…. And just taking new opportunities to see how it goes. You can always go back. If that’s not your company, someplace else. [inaudible].

Rachel Jones: So, one thing that I would say, just for people who might not work at an early stage company where there’s tons of flexibility to try different things. Or maybe you just don’t have a manager where it’s safe to announce your intentions like that. Yeah, if you’re feeling stagnant, also just think about maybe some outside of work channels that might be able to fulfill the things that you’re looking for.

Angie Chang: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Girl Geek X Podcast. Please rate and review us on your favorite podcasting app, and we’ll be back soon with more advice from women in tech.

Rachel Jones: This podcast is produced by me, Rachel Jones, with event recording by Eric Brown and music by Diana Chow. To learn more about Girl Geek X or buy tickets to our next dinner, visit Girlgeek.io, where you can also find videos and transcripts from all our events.

Angie Chang: Thanks to our sponsor, Amplitude. Amplitude is a leader in product analytics, providing digital product intelligence that helps companies ship great customer experiences for systematic business growth. Amplitude has defined the future of how companies interact with data build better products. This podcast is also sponsored by Poshmark. Poshmark is currently the largest social commerce marketplace for fashion. Anyone on the platform can buy, sell, and share their personal style with millions of other users. Poshmark brings together a vibrant community every day and encourages them to express themselves and share their love of fashion. This podcast is also sponsored by Guidewire. Guidewire believes that P&C Insurance plays a vital role in protecting people and businesses and enabling society to function. Guidewire specializes in serving P&C Insurance, exclusively with a focused commitment that puts customer success above all else. Their core competency is software development, and Guidewire holds themselves accountable for ensuring that the customers have the right technology to execute on their promises and policyholders over the long term.

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Episode 15: Managing Up

Transcript:

Angie Chang: Welcome to Girl Geek X Podcast, connecting you with insights from women in tech. This is Angie, founder of Girl Geek X and Women 2.0.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: This is Sukrutha. By day I’m an engineering manager.

Gretchen DeKnikker: This is Gretchen. I’ve been working in tech for over 20 years.

Rachel Jones: This Rachel, the producer of this podcast and we are the team behind Girl Geek X. This podcast brings you the best of Girl Geek X events, dinners, and conferences, where we’ve been elevating women in tech for over 10 years.

Angie Chang: And today we’ll be discussing working with your manager.

Rachel Jones: So I think this topic of working with managers comes up a lot regardless of the topic that we’re thinking about. Just ways to work with your manager kind of weave into the conversation. So, what do you think it is about this relationship that can be so hard to navigate at times?

Sukrutha Bhadouria: I think managing up is so hard that no one really taught me or it didn’t even come to my attention that I needed to focus on it until, I don’t know, maybe at least five or six years into my career. It’s really hard to know what’s expected of you, how you’re being evaluated if you just don’t know how to manage up. And the best way, I think, is to get on the same page and understand a bit more about what your manager… Or how your manager thinks, what your manager wants to see, what their goals are and how you can help them reach their goals. But it’s not the easiest process to get onto the same page as your manager, for sure. What do you think, Gretchen?

Gretchen DeKnikker: I think what may make it hard is that if you’re very early in your career and you’re figuring out your way in the world and how you work and how you work with other people and how you work with a manager and then your manager might be only a year or two into managing. And so they haven’t really figured out how to be a manager rather than an individual contributor to help you learn how to manage up, right? So there’s this sort of… Everyone’s sort of figuring it out as they go along and I think that might create a lot of frustration and confusion.

Angie Chang: Just generally speaking, it’s one of the very popular topics of conversation from a career advancement perspective. But when you’re in the trenches, it feels very differently, right? You’re like, as Gretchen said, you’re doing the things and your manager’s probably also building the plan on the way down. There is oftentimes just too many things going on to really consider the management side.

Angie Chang: But that’s because we come from startups where people are often just kind of learning about the rules as they’re in it. I think definitely having a lot of conversations around what the expectations are and making sure that you have regular meetings that more people will show up to, to discuss how your goals are going to align.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I think it’s super important, like Angie said, but to be really direct with this stuff, there’s sort of two ways to think about it, right? Like if you want to just kind of be a better employee thinking about what is my manager measured on, what would make them look good to their boss? What are the metrics, what are the things that they really care about? And when you’re sort of prioritizing your time, definitely prioritize and think about your decisions in the context of like, “How can I get my manager promoted?”

Gretchen DeKnikker: Because you can get your manager promoted, you can make everybody look good, right? Not that you have the ability to do that directly, but just sort of as a way of looking at it. But the other thing is, have direct conversations. Do not guess. Do not try to guess. My example is, I was hired for a job and two weeks in, my boss was fired. My brand new boss was fired and he’s really, him and a few other people who were brand new to the company and brand new to the team – we were opening a San Francisco office – they were all I had to turn to.

Gretchen DeKnikker: And so we had a trip planned to go to New York and my colleague who’d only been there a few months longer, he’s like, “Well, I don’t know if we should go.” And I was like, “I’m going, and I’m going to sit down with the CEO while I’m in New York and I’m going to ask him, ‘what were your expectations for my role? What were the goals? What are the things I could do in the first 90 days?’ Because I don’t have a manager anymore and I need to know.” It was a brand new role. And if I hadn’t asked those questions, I would have worked on the wrong things. I wouldn’t have prioritized my time in a way that my substitute manager for the time being, what his expectations were going to be.

Gretchen DeKnikker: And my colleague’s first response was this idea that you shouldn’t go meet and you shouldn’t go ask and that you should just sort of like sit back and wait to see what happens. And I’m so glad that that wasn’t my first instinct and that I went in and I had the conversation.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Yeah, that’s a good example. I think for me, I have asked questions like, “What is–” to my manager, I’ve asked questions like, “What is the thing that’s worrying you the most, work-wise? Or what is your biggest goal? What do you want your org to be known for?” And through that I get a sense of where I can insert myself and make my manager successful because that is the main thing. When you’re managing up, you want to make your manager a success in their job by basically managing them. And if I take myself and how I’m doing out of the conversation to start with and focus on what their needs are, then I put myself in that and say, “Okay, which of these align with what my goals are and how can I step in and take ownership of this particular area that’s going to make my manager successful as well as me successful and excited?” Then I’m starting to align our goals together.

Gretchen DeKnikker: Our first quote is from Sandhya Hegde who is the VP of Marketing at Amplitude and she shares her own advice on building relationships with your manager.

Sandhya Hegde: One of the challenges that I had to figure out was this idea of what builds a relationship with your manager and depending on your manager, it can be very different. So like over-simplifying, I would say there are two types. People who find it really easy to build relationships so that you don’t have to do the work. And then there are people who are just like less open, more private people that you can’t tell, “What’s this person thinking? Does she like me? Does she like the work I’m doing? She’s not, I can’t really tell what’s going on.” And so I’ve been in that situation often where I am the over-sharer – I can talk about my feelings for like three days – but I’m working for someone who does considers like, “hi” a conversation. So now, I’m like, “I don’t really know what’s happening here.”

Sandhya Hegde: And that was kind… I think the first time I had a job with a manager, it was like that. Like I really couldn’t tell what was going on. And at first I was just frustrated for a while and then actually just started talking about feeling confused. So I said, “Hey, you’re kind of hard to read and you don’t really talk about like what’s going on in your head, how you’re thinking. And I’m not really looking for like affirmation for like, ‘oh good job, Sandhya.’ Like that’s not the point. It’s not about the work. I can tell when my work is good or bad, like that’s very obvious. But I want to know do you feel like I’m making the right kind of progress?”

Sandhya Hegde: These are the things I would like to know and it wasn’t easy to do this because you have to be vulnerable. You have to say stuff like, “Hey, I care about how you feel about me,” which is a vulnerable place to be. But when I worked up the courage to say it, it made a huge difference. Because you are vulnerable, the other person starts being more vulnerable. So yeah, if you feel like you’re with someone who’s not opening up, honestly the best thing to do is just be vulnerable with them and create that space for them to reciprocate.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: I like how she is… when she gave an example of being pretty direct about trying to get on the same page as her manager. How you do that is really up to you and your personality and how you feel comfortable. But just, I think, the essence of it is trying to understand, what about your manager? Do they like going for walks in their one-on-ones or do they prefer it to be a coffee? Or do they prefer it to be in a conference room? Trying to understand more about what their working style is will help you get on the same page for sure. It will break the ice initially and then you can get to the real stuff. Like what is important to them.

Rachel Jones: I think that comes back to even episodes that we’ve had about personality and communication and just knowing how to relate to individuals specifically. Because if you’re writing your manager these emails that are like, “How’s your weekend?” And all this extra stuff and they are only really reading it for that one bit of information. Knowing that is important. So yeah, just how this person relates. How do they like to show up in the office and how can that kind of inform the way that I’m building a relationship with them and aligning with them on the goals that we’re working towards? I think, yeah, getting to know them and their personality as a manager is really important.

Angie Chang: We’re hearing about this, as Sukrutha said, the personalities definitely shine through and being someone who’s always told that it’s hard to read my expression. I was like, “Oh yes.” So like having a person who is able to tell you, “Hey, you’re a little hard to read. Can you give me a little more? Or like how are you feeling?” And someone who like works with it instead of just getting offended and not asking the hard questions.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I really love that she brings up the concept of vulnerability. That’s in any relationship, right? The willingness to be vulnerable generally is going to bring out a different side in the person that you’re willing to sort of show that softer side to.

Angie Chang: It’s also like the willingness to do a little bit of work and ask more questions instead of just being like, “Well, my manager is not giving me what I want and I’m just going to be resentful.” And just actually like asking more questions to figure out what’s the working relationship going to be with this type of person. I’m sure there’s like professional tests that will then name this personality and give you hints on how to best interact with this type of person that you can investigate.

Gretchen DeKnikker: It’s also making me think about there’s this piece of software if you’re using Gmail for work – I think it’s called Crystal Knows – but you can go in and it’ll tell you actually how to communicate with that person through email. Like if you read mine it would be like, “Use short concise sentences, make your point quickly, don’t use a bunch of flowery language.” That sort of thing. And I thought it was pretty accurate, but it’s super interesting, and I think you can get it like an initial thing for free and then you have to pay, but it’s pretty amazing. Even if you just run it on your own inbox to see, “Oh yeah, that is like how I like to get emails.”

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Yeah, it looks really good. I just Googled it, and I think I’d use it. One more thing that I’ve done, actually, is when I’ve gotten a new manager or I’ve been assigned to someone new or moved to a new org, I talk to people who reported to them for a long time to get a sense of what it’s like to report to them, what their managing style is. Just so that I’m better prepared. And that’s helped me so much to know what kind of things do they focus on from someone else’s perspective instead of just relying on how they represent to me.

Rachel Jones: So it’s nice having ideas for ways that you can build a relationship with your manager, but what do you do if you’re having a little more trouble navigating that relationship? Like how do you tell your manager that you need more from them?

Angie Chang: That’s a hard one because sometimes you realize that your manager has technically done it before but is not necessarily a good manager. So I am actually really interested to hear what Gretchen and Sukrutha have to say about working with your manager.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: I personally don’t think anyone is a perfect manager, so you know, how good that person is as a manager to you, I feel a lot of that is in your control. I also have had some good managers in the recent past, but I’ve also seen other people struggle to report to them. So just taking into my own hands and really, really focusing on the relationship and managing up. Like I said, doing my homework to get a sense of what it’s like from other people to report to them, what they like and what they don’t like. And whatever they don’t like, if that resonates with something I wouldn’t like, then I would figure out how I would work around it or improve that scenario. I haven’t had a situation in a really long time where things just aren’t working because I invest a lot very early on into the relationship. So, Gretchen, have you had a situation where despite investing energy and time into the relationship, it’s still wasn’t working?

Gretchen DeKnikker: Yeah, I think, I mean, my advice on that is don’t try to read somebody’s mind, but also when you’re trying to have this conversation of going in and if they’re like, “Yeah, that’s fine,” or whatever, and it feels like there’s something else going on, saying like, “I feel like this isn’t quite what you were looking for.” Or saying, okay–Or they’re like, “Yeah, that’s good.” But you don’t feel like they mean it. You know? It’s like, “Oh well, for next time, how could this be better?”

Gretchen DeKnikker: And really opening those things because sometimes your manager isn’t going to take the time, but you can obviously tell that they’re not happy with what you’re doing. I definitely had managers where I can just tell it’s time to over-communicate and to keep them updated on every step of the way that there’s something going on that maybe they don’t even know how to articulate themselves.

Gretchen DeKnikker: But then there are people that are just not people that you enjoy working with and that’s managers or colleagues or subordinates and at some point, there’s only so much you can do to kind of try to smooth that over and then you just either take that person at face value and accept that there are just times where things aren’t gonna work, or you, particularly if it’s a manager, going somewhere else where you just feel like… If you have a manager and you know that they are never going to lift you up. They are never going to put you center stage. They are always going to keep you in their shadow, and I’ve had those, and you have to move on. You absolutely have to move on. You cannot let someone steal your spotlight. Not on your career path.

Angie Chang: I think there’s things people could do if they’re in a bigger company to find a new manager or team or project to work on, hopefully. Being on a smaller startup, it’s nice to imagine, like what Sukrutha mentioned, finding other people that this person has like managed before. I was like thinking back on my tiny startups and like there was nobody that I can ask those questions to, so…

Gretchen DeKnikker: Well maybe not in that company, but definitely people… It’s not like they’ve never worked with anyone before. Right? So you definitely can go back. I’ve done that with a new person at a small company, and seeing if there was someone I could reach out to that they’d worked with before that could give me advice. You just have to approach it from a really positive angle of like, “Hey, I’m just trying to do really great. Like if you could give me three pieces of advice on how to be successful, what would you say?”

Sukrutha Bhadouria: That’s an interesting way of asking for constructive feedback about the person.

Angie Chang: So Sandy Lao, Head of Talent, Culture, and People Operations gave some tips on working with your manager during our dinner with HomeLight.

Sandy Liao: For us as a company, we started doing performance review on an annual basis and then we also do a year-end check-in. We want to understand, hey, even if it’s not a measurable bullet point percentage that we’re looking at, at least on a regular quarterly basis that you are speaking with your manager to talk about like, “Hey, I want to be able to achieve these five goals for the for the quarter. And are you able to do that?” At the end of the quarter, you guys should be sitting down, looking back at all the goals that you have set in this initially. And if you find out that hey, I’ve been able to achieve three out of those five goals, what can the company provide you? With what type of training or what are some of the resources for you to be able to hit the two bullet points in order for you to fulfill all of the achievement and goals that you had set initially.

Sandy Liao: So incorporating performance data is just crucial to the business, as well as yourself. So for any of you guys sitting here, if your manager has not spoken with you for the past quarter or past six months about how you’re doing from a performance standpoint, it’s just super, super important to like hold that in your hands and make that calendar invite and make them have that conversation. Right? Because especially working in a startup, these things kind of get out of hand when we’re trying to do like 100 things at once. But before any of us sitting here analyzing whether or not we’re excited to look for new opportunity or whatnot, it is just necessary to take that step to have that conversation with people that is mentoring you and that are working with you directly.

Angie Chang: I think she [inaudible 00:20:11] put that onus on people to come and tell their company what they need to succeed on the things they could improve on.

Rachel Jones: And using the data as the way to ask for it. Yeah. It’s like, “Okay, we set these goals and I didn’t meet two of them, so like, here’s what I need to meet the rest.” It’s an easier… If you’re able to kind of frame these conversations with your manager objectively, then that’s the way to navigate… If you just have a manager who has a troubling personality or communication style or other people have had difficulty working with them, really taking it back to this objective place of like, “We’re here to do this job. These are the goals along those lines and can you just tell me the extent to whether or not I’m fulfilling that”? I think being able to bring the conversation back to that is a way to navigate a more challenging relationship.

Angie Chang: It’s a good point. So, yeah, finding those, in this case she named five points every quarter, but whatever the companies set up is for those metrics that they’re trying to ask people to indicate in their performance reviews, of the self-performance reviews and using that as a way to advocate for things that you can get from your employer. Like more education, a conference ticket to go learn this thing or maybe you want to go to some kind of training group. There was some excellent t-groups for startups that I went to. Session where you can be with other startup leaders and talking through some of your management or other professional difficulties in a safer setting than your tiny startup.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I think that probably the hardest part of this bit of advice if you’re earlier in your career is you just may not know exactly what you need to hit those. And being able to articulate to your manager, this is exactly why. “If I had XYZ, then I feel like ABC would…” Right? Because I think the danger is you’re like, “Oh well if I had this one piece of software, right, that I could do this better. Or if I had an extra person I could do this better.” And those are hard cases to make to your manager, particularly if there’s an impression that you’re not hitting your goals already. And so you do want to be very specific on what it is that you’re asking for and what you think the ROI will be. Because a fuzzy ROI is a hard argument to make to a manager to get additional resources. Sukrutha, does this come up in a larger company context?

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Out of what Sandy said, I think the aspect about making sure that if your boss doesn’t bring up how you’re doing, it’s just as important… It’s equally your job to bring up how you’re doing. And Gretchen, like you said, all in your career, maybe you just don’t know how to identify what these goals are and where your goals can align with the larger organization goals. But I think that’s when you need to seek out people who are a year or two ahead of you in their career and talk to them. Try to build your resource group that way.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: And definitely I don’t think that your career growth is just fully your manager’s responsibility. It is just as much yours. And so if you don’t see those conversations coming up, you need to be bringing it up because I’m… As a manager, I can say I’m super excited and motivated to help people who seem like they want to be helped and who are motivated as well. It’s really difficult to grow someone’s career when they’re just not as motivated to do it. And that’s fine too. Sometimes people want to just stay at their level. That’s totally cool. But if you really want to grow, you want to be bringing it up a lot with your manager.

Gretchen DeKnikker: You know, I think what struck me in her comment was also if you haven’t talked to your manager in X number of months and you definitely want to be having more time with someone and making sure that you have those meetings. And like for me, advice I give to managers is that those one-on-ones are sacred and don’t move them and let the other person set the agenda. And not every manager shares that same philosophy. And you may have a manager that doesn’t look at it that way. But I always felt like I had a lot less fires and a lot less just random unexpected things happen if I kept my one-on-ones. And that also whoever knew that they had this time, my undivided attention, no one was allowed to interrupt and that I wasn’t going to move that meeting unless there was literally no other option.

Gretchen DeKnikker: And that they always had that time with me. And a lot of managers don’t do it that way. And if you have a manager like that, but if you can never get their time… This person has control of your career. And on some level, right? At least your advancement and of your visibility within the company. And if this person, if it seems like they’re investing in other people and not investing in you, rather than just being a manager who doesn’t really invest in anyone in their team, definitely think about, “Is this the right place for me? Is this the right path for me?” Because a manager can have a huge impact on your career and you don’t want to be begging for attention from someone who’s just really never going to give it to you.

Rachel Jones: Yeah. So Gretchen, you mentioned just how important that manager relationship can be for your career. How does that change as you progress in your career?

Gretchen DeKnikker: I think it changes because you start, you know, managing up and managing down as you progress in your career and you have to… I think you become a much better employee. I think someone said this on one of the dinners, you just become a much better employee once you become a manager because you realize like, “Oh, this is what a manager actually needs from me. And you become your manager’s best employee after you kind of figure that part out.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Vidya Setlur is a staff research scientist at Tableau Software. She spoke about this during an elevate conference last year.

Vidya Setlur: I have found personally that some of the best mentors that I’ve come across have been people who were my managers in the past, maybe at a different company or in a different line whom I have respected and trusted, but because they are not my manager anymore there is a different type of relationship where it can be more mentoring as opposed to managing. There’s a lovely inflection there that happens. So kind of seeking out into your network and finding those canonical examples of people that you’ve worked closely with or that managed you maybe directly or indirectly. And seeing if they can help mentor you in your next path or next effort.

Rachel Jones: Have any of you seen this happen during your career? Managers becoming mentors?

Angie Chang: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve definitely seen former, previous managers serving in mentorship capabilities. Our favorite, I feel like in Girl Geek’s dinners we hear about micro-mentorship quite often and getting really great pieces of actionable feedback or suggestions for future projects or career paths and potential career paths from former managers.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: Yeah, most of my former managers have turned into mentors. I reach out to them for various… With various questions about my career or just like… I’m sure, Gretchen, you have as well.

Gretchen DeKnikker: I keep really strong relationships with managers and they kind of do go on to be my mentor, as in they’re people that I go back to when I’m looking for a new job because… Not necessarily for them to hire me, but they know me so well and when I’m kind of trying to figure out what am I good at and what do I like doing and what direction might I go in. It’s someone who knows you really well to be able to kind of give their two cents, even if they haven’t been working with you recently. I mean, not all of your managers are like people that you want to necessarily keep taking advice from, but I think I’ve been really fortunate that most of my previous managers are people that I would want to, that I still do go back and be like, “I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up, help me.” And they do.

Angie Chang: That’s great.

Sukrutha Bhadouria: That’s really awesome.

Angie Chang: This is a great reminder of the importance of continuing to always try to find ways to do more. Like the woman from Amplitude said in figuring out the way to work with your manager, regardless of whether your personality is completely different, which is often the case in the world. Finding ways to ask more questions and figure out how to make your relationship work and benefit your career in the long run because it is your career that you need to own.

Gretchen DeKnikker: And I think it’s like any other relationship where you need to invest. You need to have candid conversations and to not think that somehow this relationship, because of the dynamic, isn’t something that should be managed like your others. With communication and understanding and clarifying questions. And that it’s not, like Sukrutha said, the manager’s responsibility solely. And that you definitely are half of the equation of the relationship.

Rachel Jones: Just knowing how awkward that transition into management can be for people. That’s definitely something to keep in mind when you’re working with your manager. Like a lot of people are put into this role without getting any kind of specific training or support on what it means to be a manager. And so keeping that in mind when you’re interacting with your managers or setting expectations for what that relationship should look like. I think, yeah. Definitely just focusing on the work that you have to do to maintain that relationship and drive your career forward and involve your manager in that.

Angie Chang: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Girl Geek X podcast. We’ll be back soon with more advice from women in tech. Be sure to like and review us on your podcasting service of choice, whether it’s iTunes or Google Play, Stitcher, or Spotify.

Rachel Jones: This podcast is produced by me, Rachel Jones with event recording by Eric Brown, and music by Diana Chow. To learn more about Girl Geek X or buy tickets to one of our dinners, visit girlgeek.io where you can also find full transcripts and videos from all our events.

Gretchen DeKnikker: This podcast was sponsored by Amplitude, a leader in product analytics, Amplitude provides digital product intelligence that helps companies ship great customer experiences for business growth.

Angie Chang: This podcast was sponsored by HomeLight, a Google-backed startup with a line of data-driven real estate products that empower people to make smarter decisions during one of life’s most important moments, buying or selling their home.